In my consulting practice, half of my clients are women. This is very unusual as the industry standard is about 10%. I’ve had the great privilege of working with some of the most talented women in their fields.
The fascinating thing I’ve noticed over the last several years is the role self-perception plays in all of them. With ZERO exceptions, all of them have a voice in their head that says, “You can’t do that,” “Oh, that’s too much for me,” etc… The best of them acknowledge the voice and do it anyway, but they all have it.
What I’ve noticed is how often the voice is objectively wrong (assuming I’m actually objective here).
This is one half of the picture that I’ve noticed for a long time.
The other half comes from raising three wonderful daughters — all under 9 years of age. It has been a delight and joy to watch them grow into little girls, and soon into young women. What has surprised me by the experience is how enormously strong an influence culture and gender expectations play in their lives.
We don’t let our girls watch TV (except musical performances or sports like the Olympics). They see very few movies. They don’t get any of the teen magazines (that are in my opinion atrocious). In short, we’ve done our best to deliberately shield them from distorted body images, women as objects or accessories to men, and countless other implied messages which drive me crazy.
… And it hasn’t worked!
My three-year-old still wants to be a princess. (Honey, be an astronaut, not a princess.)
My 9-year-old thinks she’s fat (she’s stronger than boys 2 years older than she is, and equates muscles with being too big), and wants to wear make-up to look “beautiful.”
This of course drives me absolutely crazy — though I don’t use those words with them.
It takes a daily effort to attempt to counter those messages. It’s okay to be a princess, but no princess daughter of mine is going to wait around to be rescued by some prince. “Yes DAD… we know, princesses need to solve their own problems and not wait to be rescued.”
By the way, Disney hates me.
I know I’m having some influence, but I’m surprised at how much influence the rest of the world has on them. Every night I feel the need to de-program them from what they picked up from the rest of the world. Many days, I feel like I’m losing the battle, but I keep trying anyway.
On the one hand, I’m very much raising my girls to be future leaders of something, and on the other, I work with women 50+ years old who are already leaders in their fields.
I’m surprised how often the same issues come up in conversations with both audiences.
One of the big issues, probably THE biggest issue that I see in both my women clients and my girls, is what I call the Ability vs. Self-Perception Gap.
When a woman sees her own abilities as less capable than I see it as an outsider sees it, I call this a gap between their self-perception vs. their actual abilities.
Amongst the women I know, and much to my disappointment, all of them have had this ability vs. self-perception gap. There have been ZERO exceptions to this trend.
When we think less of our abilities than our actual abilities warrant, we tend to take on less ambitious projects. We don’t stretch ourselves on projects that are slightly out of reach of our actual abilities.
In business and in life, growth in skills comes from being slightly in over your head. These “stretch” projects force you to grow your skills in real time to succeed.
By the way, this is how General Electric produces Fortune 500 CEOs. They rotate their executives into new jobs, in new industries, in new functional areas every 2 – 3 years. It drives the executives crazy because they’re never 100% competent at their new jobs. The CFO becomes head of Sales. The head of Sales in the U.S. becomes country manager for Turkey. The expert in the aviation industry now works with plastics.
This is how you groom superstar CEOs.
HOWEVER, when you think less of your abilities than your actual abilities warrant, you risk not nominating yourself for these opportunities. Specifically, you risk not expressing confidence to your boss (often men) that you can rise to the challenge.
When it comes to tackling a tough project, a lot of men — and probably a lot of women too — (in the US, I’m not sure about elsewhere) use a meta data decision-making process.
A data driven decision-making process would be one where we look at factual data about the possible candidates to lead a project, and pick the one with the strongest set of “factual” skills. A meta data decision-making process is one where the decision is based in part on how confident you seem and appear about a project.
If you’re in fact very talented, but in demeanor nervous — to many decisions makers whose own careers will be based on the success or failure of your project — you will make them nervous and will not get chosen for the opportunity.
On the one hand, who could blame them?
When you ask the surgeon who’s about to cut into your body, “Do you think I’ll live?” and the surgeon, says, “Ehh… I dunno… I kinda, sorta, maybe hope so.”
This isn’t what you want to hear!
Male or female, I like my surgeons CONFIDENT. This is totally meta.
If I were going strictly off data, I would look at the survival rate of each surgeon’s track record and look at the average difficulty level of those surgeries (and possibly segment the data to look at survival rates by difficulty tier).
Maybe the one that doesn’t sound confident is a woman with a 99% patient survival rate. Perhaps my case is the toughest one she’s seen in her career and at best, it’s a 60% chance of survival. Perhaps her uncertainty comes from the fact that she’s a perfectionist and trying to be conservative.
Meanwhile, there’s a male surgeon that says, “Yes, I’m very confident you will live.” In my anxiety, I feel SO much better. But perhaps I didn’t look closely to see that his patient survival rate is only 90%.
Is this fair?
Probably not.
Does it happen?
ABSOLUTELY.
Now you could argue that there is gender bias at work here. And there probably is. And you could argue there is some structural societal issue at hand here. And again, there probably is that too.
But as I’m writing this at 5:00am at the dining room table before my kids wake up, I don’t have the energy to tackle “save the world” projects. I focus primarily on what is ACTIONABLE and within one’s LOCUS OF CONTROL.
And the nuanced reality to appreciate is that decision makers of all types make decisions based on both data and meta data.
In short, you get picked (or not picked) for choice projects based on your track record AND how you project how you FEEL about your track record.
I have yet to meet even one woman in my business career whose confidence level exceeded her abilities. NOT EVEN ONE! (This is especially true amongst high achievers.)
While I’m only one person, that’s still a lot of data points.
My conclusion is this:
Women are chronic UNDER-ESTIMATORS of their own abilities… the trend is RAMPANT.
My oldest daughter started exhibiting this trend when she was about 7 years old.
I work HARD to try and fight this tendency in her every day. It is by no means assured that I will win this battle of perceptions (where my perception of her as an amazingly talented little girl will supersede her self-perceived view that she’s fatally flawed and not as capable as she really is).
She came home one day and announced that only boys can be smart. I’m like, “Whoa…. Whoa… wait a minute. Who told you that?”
(My actual reaction was more like “WTF!?!,” but of course I didn’t say that out loud).
Do you want to know her answer?
It’s heartbreaking.
In response to the question, “Who told you only boys can be smart?”
Her answer was, “Nobody.”
That means the message was implicit from “everybody.”
Everybody is a tough enemy to fight, don’t you think?
In contrast, boys (and men) are often told they can do anything in life. Once again, “nobody” tells them this, which basically means “everybody” tells them this.
Interestingly, I find a certain percentage of men have confidence significantly in excess of their objective talents. You and I know this as arrogance. This doesn’t apply to all men, but probably 10% – 20% of the ones I’ve come across.
Now when one under-perceives or over-perceives one’s abilities, quite often both are a result of self esteem challenges.
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Some men will err on overestimating their own abilities, and women will almost always underestimate. The difference is when it comes to men, the overestimating of their own abilities can be seen in a positive light by male decisions makers, whereas a lack of confidence is seen as a negative by both men and women decision makers.
Now I’m massively over-generalizing here. Eventually the over-confident (usually male) person’s track record gets reconciled against his demeanor (e.g., the smart CEOs figure this out)… but sometimes not for a while. This dynamic can persist for some time.
If you take the overly confident man, he’s got a better chance to get a top project than the under-confident woman. He then gets the project, struggles with it, but eventually stretches his skills to the point where his actual ability is pretty close to his original self-perception. (Of course by now, his self-perception has grown even more, but that’s a separate issue).
Meanwhile, the under-confident woman gets left behind.
Is this fair?
Of course not.
Does it happen?
ABSOLUTELY.
Nobody said life is fair. The key is to focus on what YOU can do about it that’s within your sphere of control.
If you’re a woman, here’s my question to you:
Does anything I’ve said resonate with you?
If you have a negative self-perception bias, it’s VITAL that you be aware of it.
Although I’m not a woman, I too have had a negative self-perception bias for DECADES. I’ve only more recently become aware of it and I’m close to putting it behind me entirely.
The reason you want to be aware of the bias is so you can compensate for it.
For example, I’ve historically routinely underestimated my abilities by about 50%. If others think I have a skill level 10 in an area, I historically, routinely think I have a skill level 5. This started when I was recruiting with consulting firms. I was hoping I could barely eek out a single offer from any Top 10 firm. I had no idea I’d sweep and get offers from nearly all of the Top 10 firms.
At McKinsey, I was hoping to just not get fired after two years. The thought had never even occurred to me that I could even conceivably be in the top 10% globally at McKinsey. I mean come on, it’s McKinsey after all, right?
At every step, I’ve massively underestimated myself and though publicly my career seems like it has been pretty good (and it very much has), to be totally candid with you, I was too afraid to tackle the really HUGE challenges and opportunities.
I was so afraid that I didn’t even allow myself to consider the decision explicitly; I just implicitly assumed it wasn’t within my abilities and didn’t even think about it.
During the last few years, I started to become aware of this bias in my own self perception and started adding an adjustment factor.
I just put a 2x multiplier on any self-assessment of mine.
In short, anytime I’m debating whether or not I’m capable enough to tackle a specific challenge, I’ll do the following:
If my thinking is borderline… “Hmm, maybe I could do it… well, maybe not…. it’s kind of iffy,” I will remember my self-assessment bias and adjust for it. So any time a decision is borderline, I now tell myself with my adjustment factors that it’s a no brainer. I can definitely do it (or figure it out along the way) and my abilities are a non-issue.
If you have a negatively biased self-perception, whether you are male or female, it’s important you are aware of it and adjust for it.
Otherwise, you lose out on some “stretch” projects that become vital to long-term career growth.
Today, I work for myself so I am my own boss. You’d think this would solve all the problems, as there is no boss to have to worry about. The problem is in fact worse! Sure, I get assigned to 100% of the projects I’m considering, but because of my own biases, I often don’t even consider projects I should be considering!
To compensate, I am routinely FORCING myself to take on projects that intimidate me a little, projects that I perceive that I am only 75% qualified for. These are my own “stretch” projects — projects that stretch both my skills and self-perceptions.
If you have a negatively biased self-perception, it’s important you use some similar process to adjust for your biases. You want to put yourself into the flow of challenging “stretch” projects. ALL of my growth, in both my personal life and career, has come from attempting to do things I didn’t initially think I could do.
Early in my career, I got drafted and had no choice — but thankfully did rise to the occasion.
More recently, I’m making a conscious effort to stretch myself. Many things I attempted, especially as a entrepreneur, have failed, but often I learned the most from those and came back for a second or third attempt years later — much more skilled and ultimately more successful.
The key is to realize these opportunities are important, and not to let a self-perception bias prevent you from considering them.
If you’re a man that also has a negative self-perception bias, ALL of the above applies to you too.
If you’re a man leading or managing women, it’s very useful to be aware of the dynamic above. There are many women in my business and personal life that I trust much more than a man for their specific areas of expertise. I’ve come to this conclusion based on a DIRECT detailed knowledge of their work, talent and skills.
However, if I only paid attention to the confidence level (and often lack of it) that these women conveyed about their own talents, I would have never reached that same conclusion.
When you’re a man leading and collaborating with women, I find it useful to be more data driven and less meta data driven in making people decisions about women. You’ll make more accurate personnel decisions and get more results out of your team.
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56 thoughts on “The #1 Thing Holding Women Back in Business”
Dear Victor,
I was just wondering: what do you think about “arrogant” women? Those who over estimate their forces? I feel like such a person. I was quite sure about several projects i’ve been working on for some time, and I failed in All of them. I know that I can do excellent job, I’ve done some in my past and was always best in studies, but in the ‘real’ life I just fail. How can we actually estimate our real abilities ? Do you know any good working methods? I feel like I’m loosing the faith in myself, it’s painful
Quest,
You have a miscalibration problem. You self assessments aren’t accurate (based on historical data). I recommended seeking feedback from others around you. In aggregate, the “crowd sourced” view point is surprisingly accurate.
For every “failed” project, schedule a meeting with the project sponsor and your colleagues on the project. Say, “the project didn’t go as well as I wanted. I’m trying to improve my skills and would love your feedback on why you think the project did not succeed and what you think I could have done differently. Please be brutally honest. I’m really puzzled by this”
Given the consistency of your results, most likely there is some persistent mistake you are making, probably without you even realizing it. As a result you have a low awareness issue that you need the help of others to fix. Once you get enough data points, a pattern will emerge (it always does). Look for it. Most likely it won’t be something you want to hear, so try to be open minded about it.
Once you figure out the issue, go work on improving in that area.
Victor
Victor,
Thank you for the response.
Ok, I’ll see what I can do.
Best regards, and thank you for the great job you’re doing.
It is my believe that you can’t shield children, or as a matter of fact, people, from anything. You just have to give them values into how to deal with the different situations in life. Shielding people makes them weak.
Raphael,
I understand your point and feel your point is increasingly true with age. Young children are sponges. They absorb everything good, bad and in between very quickly. The challenge for me as a parent is to teach values by ensuring my voice has a greater volume in the early impressionable years, and in later years once the values are set very little shielding is necessary.
For example, I shield my 5 year old from racism, sexism, extreme violence, kidnapping, and child abuse. As it is, she is barely sure of her place in this world. I don’t need some racist cursing at he run verbal expletives and arguing how she’s a worthless minority because of her ethnic background, and how she should just commit suicide to do the world a favor.
Some people believe this and in my opinion it is overwhelming for a 5 year old to maturely process. In short, if she heard that today, she would take it to heart and believe it. So I’ve opted to shield it from her for the time being.
Victor
Shielding makes people weak?! Bizarro comments make me weep…with laughter!
There’s a continuum that includes a range of answers to the beauty sleep question/comment you received. At one end, is a defensive, combative and offensive retort (probably career-limiting response choice); at the other end is a servile, toadyish and suck-up response, which ultimately, no one respects and it compromises your personal integrity (not a good habit to being your authentic self). A witty reply–not offensive or snarky, but delivered with humble confidence–dominates the middle of the continuum.
Q: Unsure how to deliver wit? A: think of scenarios and have a few generic and benign replies in your quiver. Q: unsure how to deliver humble confidence? A: practice, practice, practice. Do it 150x (or more) until you’re comfortable. In the meantime, what could have been the best response? Perhaps just a smile with no words, and then pivot the conversation away to something else fairly quickly. You’re not encouraging or perpetuating the behavior, and also not entirely dismissing it either.
People say stupid things every day– sometimes to be purposefully provocative, to test your moxie or because they’re simply unaware. It’s your choice to give that speaker “power” (a voice), or to diffuse the situation. As Eleanor Roosevelt said, “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Each situation will be different, but you’ve got to get over it and deal with over-sized egos and people who want to assert their agendas and will over you, other people or a project. Sometimes objective facts win the day. Other times emotion or charisma wins the day, in spite of the same facts that suggest a different, and presumably, better choice.
Look at how one comment changed your career path. If I understand correctly, a fellow consultant–one who is competing for the same or similar placement as you–rattled your cage (“a slap in the face”). While not very considerate–and admittedly inappropriate–please consider that consulting may not be a good career choice for you. You’ll get eaten alive if you let this stuff bother you.
It’s not right, but he probably knew intuitively how to “push your buttons.” I can only imagine his satisfaction–albeit misplaced–that his comment hit the bull’s eye as you internalized it as a personal affront, instead of dismissing it for what it really was–a manifestation of his own insecurity. Unfortunately, it found a home deep inside your being.
It may be hard to escape people like this in any professional setting. Each consulting engagement is going to bring different personalities into your life–some good, some bad. The one constant will be building bridges and connections with them each time you start a new gig. If you want to stay in consulting, then shrug it off, go have a drink with the group and build camaraderie. Otherwise, try to find an endeavor that accentuates your strengths–something academic-related with like-minded personalities–and sensitivities–to your own.
JT,
You raise a very good point about tone. One has to say something to avoid feeling like doormat, but if you say something with the wrong tone it ends one problem but causes another.
One can do it with wit, but Ive found it’s hard for me to be witty on demand! If wit is one’s thing, then a neutral tone also works. Indra Nooyi, ex-BCG, current CEO Pepsi, and my wifes former boss’s boss, has a great quote that she learned from one of her parents,
“Assume Good Intent”
In this case, assume the person who made the beauty sleep comment did so with positive (albeit misguided) intentions. Then respond in a tone appropriate to assumed good intent… It judgmental, more matter-of-fact-explanatory in tone,
Victor
Great article. I always wish I could experience what it would be like to be a man for just one day in business. This resonates very much with me. But I also feel that I am not as intelligent as other women (not just other men) and thus I constantly doubt my abilities and spend too much time worrying about being not good enough. I feel confident to have reached a director-level position prior to turning 30, but I feel like I’ve hit a wall in my confidence and I can’t imagine ever being a VP. I just don’t think I’m cut out for an executive role. This may be the natural progression of my career, but I’m probably not taking all the right steps to make that happen quickly. Meanwhile, there’s also the challenge not mentioned in this article about women being perceived as bad managers and thus having less opportunities in management. I’ve learned a lot from watching male colleagues who hire rockstars and not only do killer work themselves but also get credit from the executive team for the word of their underlings. But as a woman if I were to hire someone to manage, if they were bad I’d feel it was my fault and if they were good I wouldn’t want to take any of the credit. There are so many things going on at any given time where I put myself down, it’s no wonder in 10 years I’ll probably be half way to the professional levels which my male colleagues reach. Maybe that’s ok… but it’s frustrating when I really want to be a role model to other women, especially in the tech industry where it’s filled with men. I just don’t know if I can do it. I hope that the next generation somehow starts to believe girls can be smart too… but your article is rather depressing about your children, and how they still feel this way, even if you keep them from these stories / media.
Adena,
If may make an observation, you’re using a comparison-based view of the world. “Compared to X (a vice president, a man, etc…) I don know if I’m good enough.”
Forget about all of them, just focus on what you need to do to grow your skills. What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses?
Will you get more “bang for the buck” by make a strength stronger, or a weakness less weak?
Nobody has it all. My very first boss in corporate was a woman. Even though she was not technically savvy, she was a very aggressive investor in new texhnology projects (which ended up being the focus on my internship experience). I remember being pleasantly surprised that she would not let her personal weakness (lack of personal technical skill) dissuade her from making a sound business decision that happened to involve technology,
In short, she knew what she was good at and she knew how to work around (in this case hiring me) her weaknesses.
As for sharing credit, I think it’s great to share credit. I’ve always largely done so and 1) the executives know you were involved, and 2) “A-level” people often want to work with me because I’m very fair to them and given them ample room to shine.
In short, share credit because you’ll get better talent around you. It may not work in the short run, but I firmly believe it works in the long run,
Victor
This is a great insight. We know something like this is happening and never really outlined it. Awesome Victor!
Thank you Victor. You might want to look up “stereotype threat”. It’s a social psychology term that explains your observations.
Psyc,
Thanks for pointing out the term. It turns it my old professor developed the concept, but only popularized it after I graduated so I didn’t learn of it until you mentioned it.
Thanks,
Victor
Hi Victor,
I applaud your efforts to shield your daughters from a media that is corrupting the foundations of their self confidence (I recommend the documentary “Miss Representation” – which has women such as Condalisa Rice, Katie Couric and Rachel Maddow speaking about this). My own mother did the same for me growing up. She also said in one way or another almost every day, that I could do anything I put my mind to. She made sure I was engaged in and became competent at things like yard work, working on the car, fishing, skiing and camping. These skills later engendered a sense of proficiency that no one could take away. I also started valuing and respecting the opinions of people who took the time to evaluate the substance of a person rather than critiquing the package, and strive to do the same.
I am now a successful astrophysicist, so apparently it worked. I know that at some point in my school days I realized that even though the boys would say “I can do that!” and I would say “Maybe I can do that”, in the end our actual results were on average the same. I was just being conservative, not wanting to promise something I wasn’t sure I could deliver. Over time I have found that my employers and colleagues noticed that if I said I could definitely do something it meant it was 100% guaranteed, and they can rely on that. I now will tell people early on that this is my M.O., so they know that I am being conservative when I say maybe, and will often furnish the details of what I think the potential problems or setbacks are. This tends to actually help me, because they see that I have thought the process through and am thinking critically about it. It’s all about interpreting your personal language for people who are speaking a slightly different dialect.
Dee,
Thanks for the movie suggestion. I love your mom’s focus on functional skill proficiency. I recently went to a boy scouts open house to sign up my daughter. The representative’s first question to me was, do you have a son?
This pissed me off to no end. Unfortunately, girls are not permitted to join the boy scouts. I prefer the boy scouts because they teach more functional skills – start a fire, wilderness survival, etc. The Girl Scouts curriculum seems more focused on “getting along”.
I love what you did with your colleagues by proving a “legend” or translation table for others to interpret your comments and to calibrate your degree of confidence. It makes perfect sense.
Victor
Victor, I read your articles like reading a bible. I always admire people with big achivements and down-to-earth attitude. I have a few mentors in London and China as I call them. I am fortunate enough to get to know some of them very well. I regard them as my role models.
To me, you seem to be a close friend and just like them helping and guiding me along the way. Although we have never met, you still seem so real and so close. I just wish that you could write more often and send me more email updates. I sometimes read your emails and articles literally word by word and often find myself reading some over and over again.
I have had my ups and downs and my share of losing. Most recently I finished from a long term relationship and my beloved dog Emily sadly passed away in a freaky car accident. After reading some very thoughtful quotes and articles, I actually feel much better, perhaps far better than when everything was smooth.
I shared my feelings and “wisdom” on fate and destiny, or in other words, opportunities. I posted my thoughts on wechat moments. For those of you who dont know wechat, its a new instant messaging app over mobile devices, which is developed by the Tech giant Tencent in China. A new friend commented on my article, saying that she really likes reading the articles I shared on wechat and really likes my attitude towards life.
I was really happy about it and I guess that is the kind of satisfaction you get from sharing your thoughts with other people.
A bit longer than I thought for this reply. To sum up, I guess I really to say thank you. Keep it going!
Tony,
Thanks for the encouraging words and for sharing your story. As for writing more often, unfortunately you and others can read much faster than I can write!
I also try to be respectful of everyone’s time and to only write when I have something useful to say. That said, I hear your vote and have mentally tallied it.
Victor
Victor –
Thank you for posting your opinion on this topic – it’s refreshing to see a man’s perspective on this issue. As a woman with a professional business background, this article definitely resonates with me and is a true reflection of many of my female friends.
I’m guilty as charged – here’s an example; as I sat here this morning, preparing for a case interview with a consulting house coming up, I literally thought “why did they choose me for this opportunity? I’m not good enough”. Not “they can see I have the skills necessary to be a consultant”.
You’re absolutely right, the only way to stop girls and women from doing ‘to themselves’ is to pro-actively and consciously drive those negative self-perceptions away as they are formed. This requires self-reflection and reinforcement of positive thought processes; affirming the achievements of daughters, wives, sisters as well as female relatives and friends. Women are “as good as any” and need to be able to automatically say yes to those challenges in work and life as opposed to reverting to the ‘safe zone’ by using the excuse of inability to perform or fear of failure.
As ever, thank you for your great insight – not only on this matter, but also on your case interview preparation material.
I was sad to read about your 7-year old daughter’s statement after school despite your constant shielding efforts. I hope my 8-months niece doesn’t come to that conclusion in 6 years time!
For me, I went the total opposite: I tried hard to ‘prove’ that I could do it better than ‘them’ (the men) while I was an engineer. But it’s never good to overcompensate.
It’s great to see that you care so much for your daughters and I wish more fathers with daughters will not just speak up but put their passion into actions. I heard on a TED broadcast that less than 20% of the Hollywood movies have female protagonists. Maybe we can change this little by little by demanding good movies where female characters actually talk to one another instead of fawning over the male macho hero.
Let’s make sure the little girls have access to amazing women that they can model themselves after. Let’s make sure the boys learn to respect and treat women like equals, not objects. Although, it’s important to affect women, we can’t forget about the other 50% of the population and the need for their support.
Susanna,
Your Hollywood comments resonate with me. You’re totally right. One of the reasons I’m a fan of Meryl Streep is that 1) she is an amazing actress, and 2) she often plays the femal protagonist and does quite an exceptional job as well.
On the topic of female objectification, a subject I’ve been learning more about as of late, I’ve been suprised how pervasive it is. I confess I’ve objectified women without even being aware I was doing… sadly it seemed so normal and everybody was doing it so it didn’t occur to me that it was a problem.
Now that I have a more heightened awareness of it, it really is everywhere. I really never noticed previously.
While I understand why men will objectify women (I don’t agree with it, but I understand it), I’ve been really surprised at how often and how intensely women objectify other women. I see this when I hear keynote speeches and a women speaker stands at the podium. Invariably, I hear from the women around me (nice shoes, or oh that hair is terrible, or I can’t believe she wore this or that, etc…)
As a guy, I’m never looking at a male speaker’s shoes. I could care less.
For all that women don’t want to be objectified, I still don’t understand why women objectify each other. It seems mysterious to me. Perhaps someone else has a theory on this,
Victor
Victor